2008 Woodie Awards
The Main Thing is to Think
An interview with HaRav Aharon Bina
David Lasher
Issue date: 9/4/07 Section: Kol HaMevaser
- Page 1 of 1
What should outwardly observant students who are having problems with emunah do?
Rabbi Soloveitchik used to say that everyone is allowed to be unsure about God. We all have times when things about God are unclear to us.
There are no answers to this [questions in emunah] in a sefer. I do not believe when people say, “I’ll prove to you that God exists.” The minute you prove God exists, there’s no more Judaism. What does emunah mean? If I see that there is a table in front of me, it is not emunah. I see the table. Emunah is something which you cannot prove. There’s no pictures. There’s no DVD. I like to believe that every Jew is born with something inside them, but it has to be developed. If you go to the right yeshiva, or you go to the right rebbe, it can help.
When one is a child, everything is “brainwash.” Therefore, if one has, what I would call, “good intellectual brainwash” as a child then that person can build on that solid foundation. However, if one did not have good intellectual brainwash then that person needs Rabbonim with whom to talk.
The stronger question is what caused problems in this person’s emunah? Did the student at one time have strong emunah and for some reason lost it, or did the person never really have emunah at all?
What role should blind faith play in one’s religious development?
I will tell you like this: I have a lot of questions, a lot of questions. During my ten years at Ponovez, the Mashgiach used to talk twice a week about emunah. I used to get fed up with this. Today I thank him because I have so many questions about Jews and so many questions about Judaism. There is a famous line in Yiddish, “from a question we don’t die.” I have questions, but that doesn’t destroy my emunah.
The biggest question for our generation is the Holocaust. There is no answer. The second biggest question is if we have a Jewish State after the Holocaust, how much more do we have to suffer? Why did we have to go through two Intifadas? Why did we have to suffer from Hizbollah and their garbage? Our people are being killed! I don’t have an answer, the question is stronger. But for some stupid reason, I love God and I believe in God.
And I will tell you the famous story about Nachmanides. One of his talmidim died very young. Nachmanides got upset before he died. He said to him [Nachmanides to his student], “listen, you’re going to go through seven levels until you see the main boss, God, upstairs. When you get to God, tell Him you’re my Talmid, and tell Him I want to know why God took you so young, you’re one of my favorite students! After, come and tell me why in a dream. He came back to the Ramban, and said to him, “Rebbe, when you get upstairs there are no more questions.” There are many things in life in which the question is stronger than the answer, darkei Hashem- God works in mysterious ways.
You see this through the wars, God always takes the best guys. Whether religious, not religious, if you look into their personalities you see that God takes the best guys.
I used to have a driving teacher. He was killed in the first Lebanon War, about twenty five years ago. His name was Rami. He was not a religious guy. I don’t think he knew anything about religion, but he had the most pure, beautiful soul. God took him. Why? I don’t have an answer. But as I say all the time to the boys, as much as they try to throw away God, God is still there, God is still there.
What should guys do after yeshiva to continue in the right direction. What is the biggest challenge they are facing once they leave?
People ask me, “what are you doing in yeshiva with the guys?” I can’t explain. I know many things that we do, but what “changes them in a positive way,” I can’t explain. But I believe that to be across from the Holy of Holies, to watch HaRav Nebenzahl every day, and to be in yeshiva, you get a big culture shock, like chemotherapy for a few months. Eventually the talmid wakes up and says, “what am I?” “Who I am?” Like I said, everybody has their changing point, and then people start to think, and then they start to learn, and then they come back second year.
The biggest yisurim is everything- whether the internet, girls, everything. How do you stay very strong? You have to pray for this. You have to be connected to the Rebbeim that you learned from in Israel. You have to try to push yourself to be very close to your Rebbe in YU. Even if the Rebbe is not close to you, push yourself on him! Be a nudge! For a good job you nudge, so nudge the Rebbe. Also, you have the assistant Mashgichim, become connected to them. I met one of them, Rabbi Blass, he impressed me.
And second I will say, for some reason, boys in YU love to say “I’m not happy.” I think it’s a fashion. If you ask a girl, “why did you pick this dress?” She doesn’t know. It is the fashion! I don’t understand. There’s no better place than YU.
YU is a great place. Every place has its faults. Not every husband is perfect. Not every wife is perfect. Yet there are still many people together! You try to live with the faults. There are many great things about YU. There’s no center like it with so many boys sitting and learning. There’s no yeshiva in America with such great Rebbeim, huge Talmidei Chocomim! And the pre-med is great. They say that everybody gets accepted to very good medical schools, Einstein and others. What’s the problem? Perfect? Nobody’s perfect! The only perfect guy is the almighty. And also very important, to stick with and be stuck to very good friends.
Also, it is very important to be connected with your Rabbonim in Eretz Yisrael. Whenever you have an opportunity, instead of going to Florida for a vacation, come to Israel. I see through the years, the people who keep in contact with the yeshiva, spiritually, the yeshiva keeps in contact with them. And the same goes for the Rabbonim.
For example, next week, a boy who learned in yeshiva about 20 years ago, then went to YU, and after became a lawyer, will be coming to Yeshiva. Every year before Rosh Hashana he comes here for a week. One year his wife was pregnant. That year he asked me if he could come. I said “only if your wife gives you permission.” She did, so for a week he came to learn. Last year he came together with his son. The most important thing is to be connected. Everybody is connected with his bank. This is the spiritual bank – the yeshiva in Eretz Yisrael.
In terms of one’s ability to grow spiritually, how important is it to live in Eretz Yisrael?
You can grow in America also. It is much easier in Eretz Yisrael and much harder in Eretz Yisrael! Since in Eretz Yisrael it’s more holy, there is more Yetzer Hara. So wherever you go, it’s hard.
Also, you don’t divorce a wife for Aliyah and you don’t pick a girl that’s not so good because you want to make Aliyah. You take the best girl for you. She doesn’t want to come to Israel, don’t come to Israel. A good wife is more important than Eretz Yisrael.
What about the the Gemara that says you can divorce your wife to come to Eretz Yisrael?
Not in our time anymore. This halakha is not for our time. I have a relative who went to Rav Shach and asked him if he could divorce his wife because she didn’t want to cover her hair. Rav Shach said to him, “no way!” You don’t do these kinds of things anymore. Even though the Gemara in Kesubos, Perek Shvi’i says you can, no more.
When guys have Ta’avahs in Chutz La’aretz, what should they do?
If they have ta’avos, get married young. We live in a crazy world. Barukh Hashem everyone has healthy Ta’avos. If somebody doesn’t have Ta’avos then there’s something wrong with him.
Are there reasons to push off marriage? Can one push off marriage to develop in learning?
It’s very true, it’s easier to develop learning without a wife. But the world is so crazy you have to get married young. I once asked Rav Nebenzahl, I don’t go to this kind of extreme, but Rav Nebenzahl married all his children at eighteen. I went to him and asked, “Rav Nebenzahl, you think your children know about marriage?” He said to me, “Rav Bina, maybe they are not ready for marriage, but they are not ready for this crazy world.” I’m not saying to marry as young as eighteen, but twenty two or twenty one…
In Chutz La’Aretz how should guys and girls interact? Can they hang out? How should they meet each other?
I’m not a social adviser. People don’t need my advice, for this, they are much smarter.
How important is dress to a religious personality?
Dressing in black and white? Not important! As long as you go to daven with long pants, I don't care. You can wear jeans, not jeans, blue, red, whatever your taste, your girlfriend's taste, or your wife's taste. Only thing, for an American, there is no heter to go to davening with shorts. This is the only thing that really counts. The rest is all stupidity.
When people are thinking about jobs, how should they be thinking about balancing their personal and family needs against Tzarchei Tzibbur?
You have a halakha of Ma’aser Kesafim, you have to give ten percent to the Kelal. My personal philosophy is that the more you help other people, the more God will help you. This is my experience. I am 60 years old soon. This is what I’ve see. When you help other the people, God takes care of you.
What about people who are thinking about going into Chinuch versus going into law or business?
Chinuch on one side is not a Jewish job. There’s no money there. You don’t live for money, but money makes your life much easier. In Chinuch they pay bubkus, so it’s very hard to make a living. For Chinuch, you have to need it like drugs. You must be crazy about it. If you are crazy about something, you don’t care if you have money, or not. I also believe you cannot study Chinuch in university. You can develop in university, but Chinuch must be in your blood. Like a businessman, you must born with this. Sometimes you have a kid in class in elementary school, and you can see then that he will be a great businessman, it is the same with Chinuch.
What’s the relationship between friendship and religious growth? What happens if your responsibilities to your friends come into conflict with your religious growth?
I’m going to answer like this: I try to push our guys to work in Kiruv because when you work in Kiruv, you do Kiruv to yourself also. But regular friends in college or at home that are not good guys, keep away. My father once said a good line to me, “Aharon you can think about me whatever you want to think, but if you look at my friends each one of them is, what you call in Hebrew, Eser– the best. When you want judge a person, look at his friends.
How much time should people devote to activities other than learning like Chesed, Kiruv, and Chinuch?
Each guy is an individual. One of the alumni just called me from England. He’s working lots in Kiruv, but he hasn’t paid attention to university. I said to him for the next 2 years don’t do any Kiruv. Just do Kiruv to yourself. But if you are capable, try on the weekends- if not every weekend, then every second weekend, or even once a month. Every person has to judge for himself how much he is capable of, how much he can do. It’s not easy, especially in YU.
How should we study Mussar? From Sefarim? From speeches? From watching our Rebbeim? Or is there some other way? What is the best way to develop in these areas?
Everything together. But, the main thing is to be honest with yourself. The main thing is to learn Pirkei Avos, to believe in this, and to be honest with yourself every day. Like we say to the boys in yeshiva, “be honest with yourselves.” Look in the mirror and get to know yourself. Don’t cheat! If you have pimples, or if you have red eyes, or black eyes – don’t tell everybody “I have blue eyes” – be honest! If you are bald, don’t trim your hair. If you are blond, don’t turn your hair brown. Even though it’s very hard to be honest with yourself, be honest with yourself!
After the guys leave yeshiva, what do you hope stays with them?
First, my philosophy is to wait 5 years. I saw guys that left yeshiva very strong, but after 5 years they are complete Shekatzim. And I saw guys that left yeshiva not so good, and through YU, or wherever they went, they did very well. They came back. Rav Nachman mi-Breslov writes in many of sephorim, “a Jew you don’t give up on, you never know.” Sometimes the girl can save him; sometimes his friends can save him.
If you ask me, what are our goals as to what the guys should get from the year? Before everything is Bein Adam la-Chavero. This is before everything. Go to Minyan, learn every day, be part of the community, and give to the community. This is easy? No! This is, for some, the reason the Mishna said, against your will you were born, and against your will you live, and against your will you die. You need a lot of Siy’ata Di’Shmaya.
I think if you go to a place like YU, try to squeeze it. It is a good orange. Every orange has some bad taste also. In Netiv Aryeh there are bad things. In YU there are bad things. Every place has bad, but try to see the good– the good part of the orange. I feel that over the last few years, especially working with Vice President Davis, YU has improved a lot for the guys. Dr. Davis is great! He really wants the best for the boys. I don’t agree with him about everything, but I see that he means well. He really believes that his job is to serve the guys.
What is the main point of guys’ time in Eretz Yisrael?
The main thing in Eretz Yisrael when you come is not just learning, you can learn in America. The main thing in coming to Israel is to get to know yourself, be yourself. But don’t cheat! Get to know yourself. When you know yourself, you know your plusses, you know your minuses, and you know how to try and make your plusses more than your minuses. If you just learn learn learn learn learn- then to go to YU, in the meantime you will fall down. It’s not just that in Israel you don’t fall down, but you do thinking. The main thing is to think.
Rav Aharon Bina is the Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivat Netiv Aryeh.
Rabbi Soloveitchik used to say that everyone is allowed to be unsure about God. We all have times when things about God are unclear to us.
There are no answers to this [questions in emunah] in a sefer. I do not believe when people say, “I’ll prove to you that God exists.” The minute you prove God exists, there’s no more Judaism. What does emunah mean? If I see that there is a table in front of me, it is not emunah. I see the table. Emunah is something which you cannot prove. There’s no pictures. There’s no DVD. I like to believe that every Jew is born with something inside them, but it has to be developed. If you go to the right yeshiva, or you go to the right rebbe, it can help.
When one is a child, everything is “brainwash.” Therefore, if one has, what I would call, “good intellectual brainwash” as a child then that person can build on that solid foundation. However, if one did not have good intellectual brainwash then that person needs Rabbonim with whom to talk.
The stronger question is what caused problems in this person’s emunah? Did the student at one time have strong emunah and for some reason lost it, or did the person never really have emunah at all?
What role should blind faith play in one’s religious development?
I will tell you like this: I have a lot of questions, a lot of questions. During my ten years at Ponovez, the Mashgiach used to talk twice a week about emunah. I used to get fed up with this. Today I thank him because I have so many questions about Jews and so many questions about Judaism. There is a famous line in Yiddish, “from a question we don’t die.” I have questions, but that doesn’t destroy my emunah.
The biggest question for our generation is the Holocaust. There is no answer. The second biggest question is if we have a Jewish State after the Holocaust, how much more do we have to suffer? Why did we have to go through two Intifadas? Why did we have to suffer from Hizbollah and their garbage? Our people are being killed! I don’t have an answer, the question is stronger. But for some stupid reason, I love God and I believe in God.
And I will tell you the famous story about Nachmanides. One of his talmidim died very young. Nachmanides got upset before he died. He said to him [Nachmanides to his student], “listen, you’re going to go through seven levels until you see the main boss, God, upstairs. When you get to God, tell Him you’re my Talmid, and tell Him I want to know why God took you so young, you’re one of my favorite students! After, come and tell me why in a dream. He came back to the Ramban, and said to him, “Rebbe, when you get upstairs there are no more questions.” There are many things in life in which the question is stronger than the answer, darkei Hashem- God works in mysterious ways.
You see this through the wars, God always takes the best guys. Whether religious, not religious, if you look into their personalities you see that God takes the best guys.
I used to have a driving teacher. He was killed in the first Lebanon War, about twenty five years ago. His name was Rami. He was not a religious guy. I don’t think he knew anything about religion, but he had the most pure, beautiful soul. God took him. Why? I don’t have an answer. But as I say all the time to the boys, as much as they try to throw away God, God is still there, God is still there.
What should guys do after yeshiva to continue in the right direction. What is the biggest challenge they are facing once they leave?
People ask me, “what are you doing in yeshiva with the guys?” I can’t explain. I know many things that we do, but what “changes them in a positive way,” I can’t explain. But I believe that to be across from the Holy of Holies, to watch HaRav Nebenzahl every day, and to be in yeshiva, you get a big culture shock, like chemotherapy for a few months. Eventually the talmid wakes up and says, “what am I?” “Who I am?” Like I said, everybody has their changing point, and then people start to think, and then they start to learn, and then they come back second year.
The biggest yisurim is everything- whether the internet, girls, everything. How do you stay very strong? You have to pray for this. You have to be connected to the Rebbeim that you learned from in Israel. You have to try to push yourself to be very close to your Rebbe in YU. Even if the Rebbe is not close to you, push yourself on him! Be a nudge! For a good job you nudge, so nudge the Rebbe. Also, you have the assistant Mashgichim, become connected to them. I met one of them, Rabbi Blass, he impressed me.
And second I will say, for some reason, boys in YU love to say “I’m not happy.” I think it’s a fashion. If you ask a girl, “why did you pick this dress?” She doesn’t know. It is the fashion! I don’t understand. There’s no better place than YU.
YU is a great place. Every place has its faults. Not every husband is perfect. Not every wife is perfect. Yet there are still many people together! You try to live with the faults. There are many great things about YU. There’s no center like it with so many boys sitting and learning. There’s no yeshiva in America with such great Rebbeim, huge Talmidei Chocomim! And the pre-med is great. They say that everybody gets accepted to very good medical schools, Einstein and others. What’s the problem? Perfect? Nobody’s perfect! The only perfect guy is the almighty. And also very important, to stick with and be stuck to very good friends.
Also, it is very important to be connected with your Rabbonim in Eretz Yisrael. Whenever you have an opportunity, instead of going to Florida for a vacation, come to Israel. I see through the years, the people who keep in contact with the yeshiva, spiritually, the yeshiva keeps in contact with them. And the same goes for the Rabbonim.
For example, next week, a boy who learned in yeshiva about 20 years ago, then went to YU, and after became a lawyer, will be coming to Yeshiva. Every year before Rosh Hashana he comes here for a week. One year his wife was pregnant. That year he asked me if he could come. I said “only if your wife gives you permission.” She did, so for a week he came to learn. Last year he came together with his son. The most important thing is to be connected. Everybody is connected with his bank. This is the spiritual bank – the yeshiva in Eretz Yisrael.
In terms of one’s ability to grow spiritually, how important is it to live in Eretz Yisrael?
You can grow in America also. It is much easier in Eretz Yisrael and much harder in Eretz Yisrael! Since in Eretz Yisrael it’s more holy, there is more Yetzer Hara. So wherever you go, it’s hard.
Also, you don’t divorce a wife for Aliyah and you don’t pick a girl that’s not so good because you want to make Aliyah. You take the best girl for you. She doesn’t want to come to Israel, don’t come to Israel. A good wife is more important than Eretz Yisrael.
What about the the Gemara that says you can divorce your wife to come to Eretz Yisrael?
Not in our time anymore. This halakha is not for our time. I have a relative who went to Rav Shach and asked him if he could divorce his wife because she didn’t want to cover her hair. Rav Shach said to him, “no way!” You don’t do these kinds of things anymore. Even though the Gemara in Kesubos, Perek Shvi’i says you can, no more.
When guys have Ta’avahs in Chutz La’aretz, what should they do?
If they have ta’avos, get married young. We live in a crazy world. Barukh Hashem everyone has healthy Ta’avos. If somebody doesn’t have Ta’avos then there’s something wrong with him.
Are there reasons to push off marriage? Can one push off marriage to develop in learning?
It’s very true, it’s easier to develop learning without a wife. But the world is so crazy you have to get married young. I once asked Rav Nebenzahl, I don’t go to this kind of extreme, but Rav Nebenzahl married all his children at eighteen. I went to him and asked, “Rav Nebenzahl, you think your children know about marriage?” He said to me, “Rav Bina, maybe they are not ready for marriage, but they are not ready for this crazy world.” I’m not saying to marry as young as eighteen, but twenty two or twenty one…
In Chutz La’Aretz how should guys and girls interact? Can they hang out? How should they meet each other?
I’m not a social adviser. People don’t need my advice, for this, they are much smarter.
How important is dress to a religious personality?
Dressing in black and white? Not important! As long as you go to daven with long pants, I don't care. You can wear jeans, not jeans, blue, red, whatever your taste, your girlfriend's taste, or your wife's taste. Only thing, for an American, there is no heter to go to davening with shorts. This is the only thing that really counts. The rest is all stupidity.
When people are thinking about jobs, how should they be thinking about balancing their personal and family needs against Tzarchei Tzibbur?
You have a halakha of Ma’aser Kesafim, you have to give ten percent to the Kelal. My personal philosophy is that the more you help other people, the more God will help you. This is my experience. I am 60 years old soon. This is what I’ve see. When you help other the people, God takes care of you.
What about people who are thinking about going into Chinuch versus going into law or business?
Chinuch on one side is not a Jewish job. There’s no money there. You don’t live for money, but money makes your life much easier. In Chinuch they pay bubkus, so it’s very hard to make a living. For Chinuch, you have to need it like drugs. You must be crazy about it. If you are crazy about something, you don’t care if you have money, or not. I also believe you cannot study Chinuch in university. You can develop in university, but Chinuch must be in your blood. Like a businessman, you must born with this. Sometimes you have a kid in class in elementary school, and you can see then that he will be a great businessman, it is the same with Chinuch.
What’s the relationship between friendship and religious growth? What happens if your responsibilities to your friends come into conflict with your religious growth?
I’m going to answer like this: I try to push our guys to work in Kiruv because when you work in Kiruv, you do Kiruv to yourself also. But regular friends in college or at home that are not good guys, keep away. My father once said a good line to me, “Aharon you can think about me whatever you want to think, but if you look at my friends each one of them is, what you call in Hebrew, Eser– the best. When you want judge a person, look at his friends.
How much time should people devote to activities other than learning like Chesed, Kiruv, and Chinuch?
Each guy is an individual. One of the alumni just called me from England. He’s working lots in Kiruv, but he hasn’t paid attention to university. I said to him for the next 2 years don’t do any Kiruv. Just do Kiruv to yourself. But if you are capable, try on the weekends- if not every weekend, then every second weekend, or even once a month. Every person has to judge for himself how much he is capable of, how much he can do. It’s not easy, especially in YU.
How should we study Mussar? From Sefarim? From speeches? From watching our Rebbeim? Or is there some other way? What is the best way to develop in these areas?
Everything together. But, the main thing is to be honest with yourself. The main thing is to learn Pirkei Avos, to believe in this, and to be honest with yourself every day. Like we say to the boys in yeshiva, “be honest with yourselves.” Look in the mirror and get to know yourself. Don’t cheat! If you have pimples, or if you have red eyes, or black eyes – don’t tell everybody “I have blue eyes” – be honest! If you are bald, don’t trim your hair. If you are blond, don’t turn your hair brown. Even though it’s very hard to be honest with yourself, be honest with yourself!
After the guys leave yeshiva, what do you hope stays with them?
First, my philosophy is to wait 5 years. I saw guys that left yeshiva very strong, but after 5 years they are complete Shekatzim. And I saw guys that left yeshiva not so good, and through YU, or wherever they went, they did very well. They came back. Rav Nachman mi-Breslov writes in many of sephorim, “a Jew you don’t give up on, you never know.” Sometimes the girl can save him; sometimes his friends can save him.
If you ask me, what are our goals as to what the guys should get from the year? Before everything is Bein Adam la-Chavero. This is before everything. Go to Minyan, learn every day, be part of the community, and give to the community. This is easy? No! This is, for some, the reason the Mishna said, against your will you were born, and against your will you live, and against your will you die. You need a lot of Siy’ata Di’Shmaya.
I think if you go to a place like YU, try to squeeze it. It is a good orange. Every orange has some bad taste also. In Netiv Aryeh there are bad things. In YU there are bad things. Every place has bad, but try to see the good– the good part of the orange. I feel that over the last few years, especially working with Vice President Davis, YU has improved a lot for the guys. Dr. Davis is great! He really wants the best for the boys. I don’t agree with him about everything, but I see that he means well. He really believes that his job is to serve the guys.
What is the main point of guys’ time in Eretz Yisrael?
The main thing in Eretz Yisrael when you come is not just learning, you can learn in America. The main thing in coming to Israel is to get to know yourself, be yourself. But don’t cheat! Get to know yourself. When you know yourself, you know your plusses, you know your minuses, and you know how to try and make your plusses more than your minuses. If you just learn learn learn learn learn- then to go to YU, in the meantime you will fall down. It’s not just that in Israel you don’t fall down, but you do thinking. The main thing is to think.
Rav Aharon Bina is the Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivat Netiv Aryeh.